Structure Scan

6 years 10 months ago #24117 by 42
42 created the topic: Structure Scan
Hi All

Anyone using Structurescan?

I have a lowrance HDS and was wondering what the resolution was like especially with regard to finding wrecks.

Regards

Derek

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6 years 10 months ago #273764 by lloyd_borrett
lloyd_borrett replied the topic: Structure Scan
G'day,

I've just purchased a dive boat that has the Lowrance StructureScan included. See http://www.borrett.id.au/interests/diveboat.htm

But I haven't had a chance to get out in the boat yet, and thus get to see the StructureScan in action.

Best Regards, Lloyd Borrett.

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6 years 10 months ago #273770 by Andy
Andy replied the topic: Structure Scan
Depth limitations would be the main issue - similar to the Hummingbird technology

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6 years 10 months ago #273777 by TwoDogs1969
TwoDogs1969 replied the topic: Structure Scan
quote:

Originally posted by lloyd_borrett

G'day,

I've just purchased a dive boat that has the Lowrance StructureScan included. See http://www.borrett.id.au/interests/diveboat.htm

But I haven't had a chance to get out in the boat yet, and thus get to see the StructureScan in action.

Best Regards, Lloyd Borrett.




Lloyd For some silly reason I was looking at you link for your boat and noticed all the disclaimers you have for people to sign are you sure they are a good idea? People dont pay to dive on yours or any other private boat they are giving you some money towards fuel.

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6 years 10 months ago #273780 by gtscott
gtscott replied the topic: Structure Scan
expecialy as you not being a buisness would then make the liabilty forms useless as you do not come under the fair trade act

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6 years 10 months ago #273781 by james
james replied the topic: Structure Scan
I must say I was scratching my head over that one, seems a little odd to me I don't see where the fair trading act comes into it.

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6 years 10 months ago #273792 by AB
AB replied the topic: Structure Scan
In Victoria, anybody offering a service is covered by the Fair Trading Act, even if no money changes hands. The Consumer Waiver was provided under the Act to offer protection for operators after the failure of the HIH insurance co. and the inability of operators to access liability insurance. This is the only waiver backed by law, but does not cover Gross Negligence as defined in the Act. I have this waiver displayed in my dive boat to cover my ass for accidental liability (it doesn't need to be signed, just prominently displayed where the service is offered, and participation means agreement with the provisions).

Don't believe for one nano second that if you don't take money, you can't be sued. Similar provisions are available in different states, and private operators should make use of them. It is free, and could be the best investment you ever made.

Alan

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6 years 9 months ago #273795 by Matty Hamster Diver
Matty Hamster Diver replied the topic: Structure Scan
quote:

Originally posted by AB

Don't believe for one nano second that if you don't take money, you can't be sued. Similar provisions are available in different states, and private operators should make use of them. It is free, and could be the best investment you ever made.

Alan






While I am keen to hear about structurescan this liability issue is a interesting concept. In qld you are definitely covered by general obligation for duty of care as a skipper for people on board your boat. If you are deemed a commercial enterprise you come under the dive regs. The exact definition of commercial enterprise for diving has never been tested. WH&S claim if you get any reward you fall under that jurisdiction (ie fuel money), The courts haven't agreed in similar cases for fishing etc. No general waiver exists to my knowledge in QLD

Matt

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6 years 9 months ago #273801 by lloyd_borrett
lloyd_borrett replied the topic: Structure Scan
As Alan pointed out, it doesn't matter whether people are giving you money for fuel or not, having anyone on your boat has consequences. These documents help to mitigate those consequences in some circumstances. They were orginally sourced from AB, and various Getunder and VSAG boat owners have been using them for some time.

Of course, many lawyers will tell you that people can't sign away their rights and thus such documents could be a waste of time. However, there have also been plenty of cases in courts around the world where having such a document regime in place has made a difference.

The documents demonstrate that everyone is aware of what's going on and has willingly accepted the risks involved. They also help to demonstrate that the boat owner is acknowledging their duty of care and organising things accordingly.

Best Regards, Lloyd Borrett.

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6 years 9 months ago #273804 by gtscott
gtscott replied the topic: Structure Scan
oh i wasnt saying you cant get sued, i was saying that as your not operating as a commercial operator the fair trade act is not applicable to you, and therefor your waiver is useless, even though you are in vic where you have some rights above other states when it concerns waving rights.

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6 years 9 months ago #273807 by TwoDogs1969
TwoDogs1969 replied the topic: Structure Scan
My point was a waver like this would have to bring you very close to admitting operating a charter service. I am no lawyer just what I get from reading it the waver looks very commercial. The way I see it on my boat is I am going to x place to have a dive if you chose to jump in the water it is your call. I am not here to tell you how to dive, What gear you should dive with or to hold your hand. I have normal boat insurance which states I am allowed to accept money for fuel but not run a charter business and it carries an amount of public liability insurance I think its 50 million. Are you guys sure you not just over complicating something that doesn't need to be and looking for something that isn't there?

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6 years 9 months ago #273809 by rachel
rachel replied the topic: Structure Scan
different states have different laws. as an FYI, in Qld the Civil Liability Act has a section on dangerous recreational activities. Section 19 states:

quote:

19 No liability for personal injury suffered from obvious risks of dangerous recreational activities
(1) A person is not liable in negligence for harm suffered by another person as a result of the materialisation of an obvious risk of a dangerous recreational activity engaged in by the person suffering harm.

(2) This section applies whether or not the person suffering harm was aware of the risk.



where recreational activity is defined as

quote:

18 Definitions for div 4
In this division--

dangerous recreational activity means an activity engaged in for enjoyment, relaxation or leisure that involves a significant degree of risk of physical harm to a person.

obvious risk has the same meaning as it has in division 3.



obvious risk is defined in section 13:

quote:

13 Meaning of obvious risk
(1) For this division, an obvious risk to a person who suffers harm is a risk that, in the circumstances, would have been obvious to a reasonable person in the position of that person.

(2) Obvious risks include risks that are patent or a matter of common knowledge.

(3) A risk of something occurring can be an obvious risk even though it has a low probability of occurring.

(4) A risk can be an obvious risk even if the risk (or a condition or circumstance that gives rise to the risk) is not prominent, conspicuous or physically observable.

(5) To remove any doubt, it is declared that a risk from a thing, including a living thing, is not an obvious risk if the risk is created because of a failure on the part of a person to properly operate, maintain, replace, prepare or care for the thing, unless the failure itself is an obvious risk .

Examples for subsection (5)--
1 A motorised go-cart that appears to be in good condition may create a risk to a user of the go-cart that is not an obvious risk if its frame has been damaged or cracked in a way that is not obvious.
2 A bungee cord that appears to be in good condition may create a risk to a user of the bungee cord that is not an obvious risk if it is used after the time the manufacturer of the bungee cord recommends its replacement or it is used in circumstances contrary to the manufacturer's recommendation.



rachel

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6 years 9 months ago #273823 by AB
AB replied the topic: Structure Scan
gtscott,
the provisions of the Fair Trading Act Vic cover all providers of Recreational Services (in Vic), regardless of if it is commercial or not. It seems a little strange, but practically, Fair Trading was the easiest Act to introduce such provisions. It is not always possible to provide for every situation in law, so some things get stuck in odd places. If you provide a recreational service for free, and it causes damage to a consumer, this provision will protect you provided (1) the waiver was displayed and (2) you were not grossly negligent.

However, this waiver has a time limit:
The Fair Trading (Recreational Services) Regulations 2004 will sunset 10 years after the day of making on 4 May 2014 (see section 5 of the Subordinate Legislation Act 1994).

Hopefully it will re emerge in a more specific form in 2014.
Full text here:

www.legislation.vic.gov.au/Domino/Web_No...0123EB5!OpenDocument

Alan

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6 years 9 months ago #273825 by SCUTTLE
SCUTTLE replied the topic: Structure Scan
There goes Another thread off on a interesting tangent that should have been a topic on its own [{-)]

I wonder if anybody will be able to answer the original OP question [?]

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6 years 9 months ago #273829 by Matty Hamster Diver
Matty Hamster Diver replied the topic: Structure Scan
quote:

Originally posted by SCUTTLE


I wonder if anybody will be able to answer the original OP question [?]






I live in hope as I'm looking to buy one myself shortly

Matt

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6 years 9 months ago #273851 by Nautilus
Nautilus replied the topic: Structure Scan
quote:

Originally posted by SCUTTLE

There goes Another thread off on a interesting tangent that should have been a topic on its own [{-)]

I wonder if anybody will be able to answer the original OP question [?]






Sure. Got one, love it! Though it takes a little while to figure out how to read it properly. But I've found some amazing dive sites with it. To give you an idea, you can see the stanchions and railings on the Canberra.

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6 years 9 months ago #273855 by TwoDogs1969
TwoDogs1969 replied the topic: Structure Scan
[quoteSure. Got one, love it! Though it takes a little while to figure out how to read it properly. But I've found some amazing dive sites with it. To give you an idea, you can see the stanchions and railings on the Canberra.

What sort of depths is it good to? I have heard 30 m sorts of pulls them up are they good to 100 m?

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6 years 9 months ago #273859 by whodidwhat
whodidwhat replied the topic: Structure Scan
quote:

Originally posted by TwoDogs1969


What sort of depths is it good to? I have heard 30 m sorts of pulls them up are they good to 100 m?




Scott
None of the Side imaging units are good much beyond about 30 meters as a side imaging unit. Beyond about this depth they just revert back to basically a sounder, as long as the transducer is near the surface. This is for all of the units

Humminbird http://store.humminbird.com/category/415569/New_Down_Imaging_Products

Lowrance http://www.lowrance.com/Products/Marine/Broadband-Sounder-and-Ethernetworking/StructureScan/

Starfish http://www.starfishsonar.com/

This is for 2 reasons

1) The frequency they are using at the transducer (higher frequencies, better resolution, less water penetration) so @ 200kHz say a max range of approx 100m and @ 500kHz down to 50m that the ping will penetrate so the ability to provide a side image is less than this range

2) How the side scan works, they are looking for a low skimming angle to produce the image (typically they produce the best results when the transducer is 10% of the range off the bottom). Think of a torch shining a light just off the bottom providing longer shadows behind objects rather than a torch shone from above

There are a few people around modifying these units into a towed unit so getting the transducer further down into the water column (search either http://forums.sideimagingsoft.com/index.php?board=41.0 or http://www.xumba.scholleco.com/index.php for towfish or modification) but with the cable limitations (say approx 60 meter extension this will only get the unit down approximately another 20 meters so extend the usable side scan depth to around 50m- 60m

Either way if had a few thousand dollars to throw at a new sounder I would consider any of these units, buy a second transducer (a low frequency transducer most have these as an option) mount the 1st transducer to the boat and modify the second transducer to act as a towfish.

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6 years 9 months ago #273883 by Nautilus
Nautilus replied the topic: Structure Scan
quote:

Originally posted by TwoDogs1969


What sort of depths is it good to? I have heard 30 m sorts of pulls them up are they good to 100 m?




I have to admit, I rarely dive to 100m and haven't really tried it to those depths. Works OK in 30m though. I mainly use it in the 15-30m range as I like my cray ledges.

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6 years 9 months ago #274141 by 42
42 replied the topic: Structure Scan
That Towfish option looks interesting.

Anybody in OZ tried this? I would love to have a look at the setup.

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